CNN transcript
Part 1
Aired June 4, 2012 - 15:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS
COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(MUSIC PLAYING)
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN HOST:
Good evening, everybody, and welcome to the program. I'm Christiane Amanpour.
When President Barack Obama said
last week that the U.S.
encouraged change in Cuba ,
Fidel Castro responded that the American empire would fall before Cuba did. Fidel
has never been one to pull his punches.
In fact, there have been major
changes in Cuba ,
economic ones, introduced by Fidel's brother, Raul. But in my brief tonight,
this question: Do the Castro brothers, now in their 80s, have the time or the
will to bring about real political change?
Since Raul Castro became president
in 2006, Cubans can now own the property they farm, buy and sell their own
houses and cars and all jobs are no longer on the government rolls, and there
are also small private businesses. But one of the fundamental rights of
democracies, the power to choose between different political parties and also
to dissent, is forbidden.
Just this spring when the pope
visited Cuba ,
dozens of dissidents were rounded up before he arrived. Tonight, though, we
have an extraordinary and rare opportunity to ask a Castro about Cuban reforms.
Mariela Castro Espin is Raul's
daughter and Fidel's niece. She herself is an activist fighting for gay rights
in Cuba .
In the early days of the Castro revolution, gay Cubans were sent to labor camps
for reeducation.
Now, largely thanks to Mariela's
efforts, gays and lesbians are openly expressing their pride. But we want to
know whether this will translate into greater rights in other areas, like
political reforms and freedoms. In a moment, I will ask Mariela Castro about
all of this.
AMANPOUR: But first my exclusive interview with Mariela
Castro, who's been on a rare visit here to the United
States and perhaps in rare agreement with the United States
president on the issue of gay rights.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Mariela Castro, thank
you for being with us.
MARIELA CASTRO ESPIN, DAUGHTER OF
RAUL CASTRO: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: I want to ask you first,
who inspired you to this cause of gay rights?
ESPIN (through translator): In the
first place, it was my mother.
My mother began to do this kind of
work in the Cuban women's organization, first defending women's rights,
children's and youth rights and little by little she began to try and have
people be respected in the LGBT community that, because of a very patriarchal
culture inherited from the Spanish system continues to be our reality, these
prejudices are still repeated.
AMANPOUR: Let me show you these
pictures that we have found, amazing pictures of you and your family, your
mother and your father and your siblings. This is the current president, Raul
Castro, your father. And this is your mom, Vilma.
ESPIN: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And which is you here?
ESPIN: Here. Esta.
ESPIN (through translator): I'm
right here. This is me. I'm the second child.
AMANPOUR: Given your family's
history and the revolutionary hero and the tough guy image in Cuba , was it
difficult to take up this cause of gay rights?
ESPIN (through translator): All
families in the world are patriarchal families and they're machista families.
And in the case of my family, the fact that my mother was already working in
this field, she ensured that my father interpreted this reality in a more
flexible way.
And for me it was always easy to
speak openly with my parents and this idea of fighting against homophobia was
really something that I took from them.
But even so, although I found
understanding in my family and my family was very understanding, even my father
is very understanding right now, it's a very difficult and complex process, and
this is why my father always said that I have to be very careful about
everything and to do this very attentively and carefully so that I wouldn't
hurt other people who don't understand, but that I do have to provide people
the instruments with which they can respect other realities, even though they
don't understand them.
AMANPOUR: You have written,
"As I began to recognize the damage that homophobia was doing to society,
I would come home and confront my parents with the issue. And when I got home, I
said to my father, `How could you people have been so savage?' My dad said,
`Well, we were like that in those days. That's what we were taught. But people
learn.'"
So it was an evolution for your
father.
ESPIN (through translator):
Exactly. I think that Cuban society as a whole has been changing and its
political leaders are also changing as part of society.
AMANPOUR: Even in this country,
it's taken a long time for politicians to agree, for instance, to gay marriage,
same-sex marriage. President Obama has just said that he supports it. You must
admire President Obama.
ESPIN (through translator): Yes.
And when I heard this news, and I was questioned about it in the press, of
course I can say that I support and I celebrate what President Obama has done.
I believe that it's very just and I feel a great deal of admiration for
President Obama.
I believe that if President Obama
had fewer limitations in his mandate, he could do much more for his people and
for international law and international rights. Yes, I think that I dare to say
that, because I'm not American. That's really a right that the American people
have. But I feel the right to express what I feel, and if I was an American
citizen, yes, I would vote for President Obama.
AMANPOUR: On this issue of
same-sex marriage, do you think that will become legal in Cuba ?
ESPIN (through translator):
Already several years ago, my mother began to promote this bill and even trying
to propose changing legislation. First we were proposing the freedom of
same-sex marriage.
But since there's been such a
debate on this and there are so many diverse opinions in Cuba , what is
being proposed right now are civil unions, where gay couples have the same
rights as heterosexual couples. However, this hasn't happened as yet, and
people who are in same-sex couples do not have any protection.
AMANPOUR: You can see these
pictures of gay rights marches in Cuba itself. When do you think this
law will be taken up? When do you think that there will be progress from the
Cuban parliament on this?
ESPIN (through translator):
According to what had been planned, it's this same year that this still has to
be presented, which recognizes the rights of same-sex couples.
AMANPOUR: As we've been talking,
you've talked about human rights and you've talked about the limits of the
state. So let me ask you about the rights in your country and whether you think
that gay rights, civil rights, could lead to more different kinds of rights,
political kinds of rights. Where do you see this trend going, opening up the
space for civil rights?
ESPIN (through translator): At
present, in the last few years, there's been a big debate that the Cuban people
have participated in in many sectors. And there have been criticisms and
suggestions of what we have to change in Cuban society.
And many valuable ideas have come
from this. And what we've seen is what the population believes should be our
socialist transition process in Cuba .
And we want to include everything that we believe to be our need. And of
course, this translates into rights, civil rights.
AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you
about that. I've been in Cuba
several times over the last 14 years, and I can see that under your father,
President Raul Castro, there's been opening on the economic front, but not so
much on the political front. Again, do you think these civil rights will lead
to more political diversity, more political rights?
ESPIN (through translator): As to
political rights, what are you talking about?
AMANPOUR: Obviously, there's one
party in Cuba ,
so that's one issue. But Human Rights Watch says that Cuba remains the only country in Latin America that represses virtually all forms of
political dissent. So I'm trying to figure out whether there is space in Cuba for
broader political rights, where people, for instance, can dissent without being
sent to jail.
ESPIN (through translator): All
right. Human Rights Watch does not represent the ideas of the Cuban people and
their informants are mercenaries. They're people that have been paid by foreign
governments for media shows that do not represent Cuban positions correctly.
However, the presence of a sole
party in Cuba came from the
fight against colonialism, from Spain .
Jose Marti had the merit of creating the Cuban revolutionary party in Cuba as a sole party, specifically to achieve
independence and to avoid domination by the United States . So that's the line
that we followed in Cuban history because conditions haven't changed.
And it hasn't been easy. We've
been working for many years to achieve this. We've achieved it in many spheres,
in human rights, the rights of women, health, in many areas. But in other
areas, where we haven't reached that, we're still working. That demand, that Cuba have
various parties, no country has shown that having plural parties leads to
democracy.
So the suggestions that they want
to make to us aren't valid. Conditions haven't changed. Cuba is a country that for over 50 years have
been subjected to the violation of international law with the financial
blockade which has not allowed Cuba
to access development.
AMANPOUR: I think I heard you
suggest that if the embargo was not there and if you were not under pressure,
that there would be a different political reality or there could be a different
political reality in Cuba .
Is that right?
ESPIN (through translator):
Exactly. That's right. If Cuba
weren't the subject of an economic and trade embargo, which has created so many
problems for us, then Cuba ,
it wouldn't make sense to have a sole party, just one party. But it's when our
sovereignty is threatened that we use this resource, which has truly worked in
Cuban history.
AMANPOUR: As you know, there are
many people, even inside Cuba ,
who feel that if the embargo was lifted, it would actually cause the one-party
system to collapse. It would cause, perhaps, socialism to collapse.
ESPIN (through translator): I
don't think it would collapse. I don't think socialism would collapse. I think
it would become stronger. This is why they don't lift the embargo.
AMANPOUR: To be continued, this
conversation.
Thank you very much for coming in.
ESPIN (through translator): Thank
you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And, indeed, we will
continue that conversation tomorrow. We'll talk about the controversial case of
American prisoner in Cuba
and the five Cubans who are here in American jails. We'll also talk about
travel restrictions from Cuba .
And before we go to a break, I
want you to take a look at this picture. That is Raul Castro, Mariela's father
and Cuba 's
president, driving a Jeep for his brother, Fidel, El Presidente himself. And
that was 50 years ago. Raul turned 81 this weekend, and who will get behind the
wheel of state after he's gone? That remains a mystery. We'll be right back.
Part 2
US Embargo of Cuba
Aired June 5, 2012 - 15:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS
COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MARIELA CASTRO ESPIN, DAUGHTER OF
RAUL CASTRO: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Let me get to some of
the reaction that your visit here has caused. Were you surprised that the U.S. government
gave you a visa?
ESPIN (through translator): Even
though I had obtained a visa under Bush in 2002, I was surprised this time. I
didn't think that I would be granted a visa. But I'm grateful. I was able to
have a very rich exchange with professionals and activists in San
Francisco and in New York
as well.
AMANPOUR: You don't need me to
tell you what the Cuban-American community thinks. Florida Senator Marco Rubio
accused you of bringing a campaign of anti-Americanism to the United States .
Is that what you're doing here?
ESPIN (through translator): In the
first place, that senator doesn't represent the Cuban-American people in the
United States, just a very small interest group that has dedicated itself to
manipulating policies in the United States towards Cuba affecting the civil
rights of the Cuban-American people to travel freely and as often as they want,
to be able to go back and see their families in Cuba.
So their leaders have always asked
that we normalize relations based on respect towards our sovereignties and our
social and economic projects. And I think that we can achieve this. I think
it's easy. It's unfortunate that a small group of people are really limiting
this process. I felt the friendship and the affection of the people of the United States .
I felt very well here. I've met
wonderful people and I see that we share many points in common, Cuba and the United States . Right now in Cuba , there are
many Americans because of the flexibility that Obama has. And it's wonderful.
They may feel very well there. And we're ready. We're ready to meet in
friendship with any type of conditioning or political (inaudible).
AMANPOUR: Did you expect more from
President Obama or has he gone as far as you expected him to go on the Cuban
issue?
ESPIN (through translator): I
think that the whole world and the American people have placed great hopes on
President Obama and I personally understand that that is his position and that
his public mandate limits him a great deal.
But I believe that President Obama
needs another opportunity. And he needs greater support to move forward with
this project and with his ideas, which I believe come from the bottom of his
heart. He wants to do much more than what he's done. That's the way I interpret
it personally. I don't know if I'm being subjective.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that he
wants to lift the embargo, and that there could be proper relations between Cuba and the United States under a second Obama
term?
ESPIN (through translator): I
believe that Obama is a fair man. And Obama needs greater support to be able to
take this decision.
AMANPOUR: Do you want Obama to win
the next election?
ESPIN (through translator): As a
citizen of the world, I would like him to win. Seeing the candidates, I prefer
Obama.
AMANPOUR: Now, as you know, there
are many issues that cause problems between Cuba
and the United States .
One of the issues right now is Alan Gross. I want to play you something that he
told CNN's Wolf Blitzer.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALAN GROSS, AMERICAN HELD PRISONER
IN CUBA: I have a 90-year-old mother who has inoperable lung cancer and she's
not getting any younger. And she's not getting any healthier. I would return to
Cuba ,
you know, you can quote me on that. I'm saying it live. I would return to Cuba if they
let me visit my mother before she dies. And we've gotten no response.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So my question to you is
why should Alan Gross not be allowed to visit his sick mother?
ESPIN (through translator): The
Cuban government has publicly requested that they want to negotiate based on
human considerations, Alan Gross' situation as well as the situation of the
five Cubans who have been in prison for 15 years in the United States. And the
Cuban people who are participating in this process is to seek a satisfactory
solution for the six families, the five Cubans and for Alan Gross.
I think that it's fair. I'm hurt
by any families suffering. I'm dedicated to helping people and making them
happy, and it seems to me that independently of the fact that he's committed a
crime and that he's only served a short period of his sentence, I think that
it's fair that people can receive the benefit of flexibility in the world of
law and justice, and that these negotiations go forward into the two
governments. I think that as a people, we're going to be very happy the
situation has been solved.
But we have the case of Gerardo
Hernandez, who's in prison. His mother fell ill. He asked for permission to see
his mother. His mother passed away, and Gerardo was not able to say goodbye to
his mother. He also hasn't been able to see his wife this whole time.
Alan Gross has been granted
everything that he's asked for. He's been able to see his wife. He's been able
to have matrimonial conjugal visits and he has been treated with respect and
dignity the way we always treat prisoners in Cuba .
We haven't received the same
treatment on the other hand for our five prisoners who have very long
sentences. They're not right. So what we want is the well-being of all of these
families. That's what we (inaudible) the most. I think that the six must be
released, both the five Cubans and Alan Gross.
AMANPOUR: You yourself have said
in New York
this week, our system is open and fair, as you've just told me. Many would
disagree with you, but you have said that. But you've also said that it could
be more democratic. What do you mean by that?
ESPIN (through translator): I
meant to say that we need to establish permanent mechanisms for the people's
participation when we make decisions, because this is the only way that all our
people can participate.
AMANPOUR: We often wonder why it
is that Cubans can't travel very easily. Cubans have to get permission from the
government to travel and come back. They can't just leave. And it's quite
difficult to get permission. I mean, people have told me that inside Cuba . Why? I
mean, what's the point of that?
ESPIN (through translator): The
subject of migration in Cuba
was always managed politically from here and you know that there are many
difficulties. And immigration law, even though the law in the United States is maintained, should change in Cuba .
So several years ago, there's been
a great discussion regarding the subject about how to modify this law and I
understand that the fear and new immigration law will be approved in Cuba,
which opens up to everything that the Cuban people have requested in our ongoing
debate.
AMANPOUR: So you foresee change in
the travel laws?
ESPIN (through translator): Yes,
and I believe it's going to come about very soon.
It's one of the things that we've
asked for the most in all of these discussions.
AMANPOUR: I have to ask you about
somebody who you're already having a bit of a verbal war with, and that is
Yoani Sanchez, the dissident blogger inside Cuba . Why shouldn't she be allowed
to blog? Why shouldn't she be allowed to say what she does?
ESPIN (through translator): The
way I see it, Yoani Sanchez is allowed to express herself. She has a blog.
She's on Twitter. She's on Facebook. She's not in prison, even though she's a
mercenary. (Inaudible) she's received over half a million dollar in prizes
(inaudible) form of payment and (inaudible) mercenary does exist in Cuba .
Even though she's done that, she's
not in prison. Even though she is breaking the law, she's allowed to express
herself and she's allowed to lie. She has time to lie in everything that she
wants. She's free. She even has the most sophisticated technology which exists
in Cuba
to connect to Internet and to be able to publish her ideas.
AMANPOUR: In that regard, a couple
of years ago, journalists came to Cuba , and they met with your uncle,
Fidel Castro. And he gave an interview and he basically said the Cuban model
doesn't even work for us anymore. What do you think he meant by that?
ESPIN (through translator): He
meant to say that in this new era, in Cuba 's new reality, with the
development of the political culture and functions (ph) in our country, it was
time for a change. We had to change our strategy. And that's what we've been
doing. He realized it. And as a leader, he was calling upon us to do that.
But those changes do not happen
overnight. I repeat, they have to be worked on. We have to generate a debate,
and I think that that is what we've been doing. And I'm very satisfied to see
that the maximum leader of our revolution has identified our difficulties,
because as a people we were also defining them.
AMANPOUR: Thank you very much for
coming in.
ESPIN (through translator): Thank
you very much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And if you missed the
first part of my interview with Mariela Castro, you can watch it on
amanpour.com, where you can see our entire program every day.
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